Alternate progression system


  • Duke

    So I brought this up on the discord but it may be a good idea to post the major ideas here, just so that we can have a place to track the major on topic points. You dont really have to post on this if you dont want to as I will try and just edit this post with the good stuff.

    what is the system: To try and track the size and development of realms.
    how does it work: Track total realm builds counts, maybe be more granular and track specific types of builds too.
    what is the goal: To make it a little easier to compare realms, and give another avenue for progression.


  • Knight

    would this change tank progression in any way?


  • Baron

    @Ari Considering this is Minecraft and not World of Tanks, I doubt it. 😛
    From the discord discussion, I don't think it would.

    what is the system: To try and track the size and development of realms.

    I'll copy and paste over my thoughts:
    "I would think a good way to go about it is just to have a tracker. It could be as simple as counting up the builds, but if you wanted to you could just apply the noble rank build requirements to find the realm's "equivalent rank" as if it were all built by a single noble."

    how does it work: Track total realm builds counts, maybe be more granular and track specific types of builds too.

    The type of builds might be a bit too much work, but if someone wants to compile the data good on them. What are thoughts on making this a job of the Infrastructure Ministry? @Mimo

    what is the goal: To make it a little easier to compare realms, and give another avenue for progression.

    The first part makes a lot of sense. No reason to oppose data collection. The second point might cause more contention. How would this be another avenue of progression? Is it just to see the numbers go up, or would there be some form of rewards system?
    I wouldn't actually be opposed to certain large enough realms getting rewards for reaching a certain size. There is already a precedent in the form of fast travel. My one issue is that it really ought to be realm specific, and not player specific. These rewards in whatever form they take would be for the benefit of all who participate in the realm, not just whoever owns it. I think it would be a good way to foster cooperation.


  • Count

    So why do we need this, and why does this need to be an official system?

    As of right now, there is nothing stopping you from reporting the number of your realms builds on a statistics forum post or wiki article.

    My gut instinct, is the only use a official realm ranking system would have, is to flex on smaller realms like cedric did. That doesn't seem like a healthy system to create.

    So if we create it, is the end goal to create realm benefits like was discussed in the very beginning, or is it to rank who has the "better" realm?
    Maybe i'm reading too much into this.


  • Baron

    I talked a good deal about my thoughts on this in the discussions tabs in the Discord but I will happily reiterate my thoughts here!

    So in theory I see no issue with having a title/descriptor system for reaching a certain number of builds and/or infrastructure. Having a system that basically just gives your realm a 'size name' doesn't go against anything we already have. My issue would be attaching benefits to this system and I am still skeptical of the idea that a sizable amount of members even want a system like this.

    The reason we changed the rank system when we moved here was to give more power to vassals and to make it so that lieges didn't just reap basically all of the hard work of the vassals whenever the vassal left. We were all in agreement that what you build you deserve credit for, the stripping down of rewards was also in an attempt to remove useless benefits from the old system we weren't using anymore. We also detached rank from lore because that was some weird shit to be honest. If we create another system that gives clout/power/bragging to people who just happen to build more we are slowly going back to a system where someone who just simply has more time gets more power on what is supposed to be just a bunch of online friends playing Minecraft and writing fiction together. Not to say that we shouldn't have any rewards at all for people who put the time in but the fact of the matter is that we aren't an MMO and the idea of needing a system of progression baked into the server is, at a point, counter to the purpose of the server as I currently understand it. Not to pull some "Original vision for the server" bullshit but has this ever really been about progressing through the ranks and acquiring perks/benefits? I certainly don't think so and I know that many others feel the same way.

    I think the real discussion to possibly be had out of this is to maybe rethink the current rewards someone gets? As it stands now its a bit thin to be honest but the issue we run into every time is that, because this is just a Minecraft server, there isnt anything that can really be rewarded that would mean something like a Legendary weapon in an MMO would.


  • Duke

    This post is deleted!

  • Duke

    @Alric said in Alternate progression system:

    So why do we need this, and why does this need to be an official system?

    As of right now, there is nothing stopping you from reporting the number of your realms builds on a statistics forum post or wiki article.

    My gut instinct, is the only use a official realm ranking system would have, is to flex on smaller realms like cedric did. That doesn't seem like a healthy system to create.

    So if we create it, is the end goal to create realm benefits like was discussed in the very beginning, or is it to rank who has the "better" realm?
    Maybe i'm reading too much into this.

    I think we need this because right now there really isn't a reason to develop a realm, and there isn't really reason to take vassals.

    As far as I know, cerdic doesn't play on this server, and if there is someone on the server who would use the potential of this to abuse others like he did then I think we have larger problems and they likely would be doing it already.

    And flexing on people is not a negative. If you put work in why can't you get some flex on it, why can't that be a motivator for others.

    I have no intention of attaching any tangible benefits to this. A system doesn't even exist so why would be preemptively sabotage it by trying to attach benefits that, realistically no one will agree on.


  • Viscount

    I agree with Alric. I feel like it would just be a means of showing that your realm is bigger and more developed than someone else's. Anyone can compare that themselves by visiting another realm.

    I'm open to the idea of having a ranking system based on infrastructure rather than total builds deciding realm size. By that I mean how well your realm corresponds with your lore. How well it portrays your religion through the in game realm, or government and such. Perhaps with that can come some new perks, instead of using it to flex on others. What new perks? No clue. That's why I'm not sure if this system should exist. If it is simply a descriptor without any real benefit to anyone except to say "look at the size of my realm"... what is the point?

    Perhaps as a way to promote people working together on a singular realm. much like cobuilds. Then having that joint satisfaction of creating something well developed together, and holding a single title for that realm together--- rather than only having individual progression ranks.

    Overall, I'd say it is an interesting idea that COULD be practical, but I'm unsure that it really would be. I'm for it if someone brings along a good method of execution and implementation. Otherwise, I think we are better off keeping progression as it currently is, without further complicating it with more systems.


  • Viscount

    I do agree with Tywen in the idea of there currently being no incentive to take vassals. I mean, I'll gladly take a vassal and there is personal incentive to want to mentor someone and help them become adjusted to the server and begin their journey... but I do see what he means. Maybe this could be a system to judge the overall realm including the liege and vassal's builds, but then not add any benefits.... simply a descriptor. I suppose I could go both ways here. It depends on what we figure out.


  • Duke

    @LawnBoy072 said in Alternate progression system:

    I talked a good deal about my thoughts on this in the discussions tabs in the Discord but I will happily reiterate my thoughts here!

    So in theory I see no issue with having a title/descriptor system for reaching a certain number of builds and/or infrastructure. Having a system that basically just gives your realm a 'size name' doesn't go against anything we already have. My issue would be attaching benefits to this system and I am still skeptical of the idea that a sizable amount of members even want a system like this.

    The reason we changed the rank system when we moved here was to give more power to vassals and to make it so that lieges didn't just reap basically all of the hard work of the vassals whenever the vassal left. We were all in agreement that what you build you deserve credit for, the stripping down of rewards was also in an attempt to remove useless benefits from the old system we weren't using anymore. We also detached rank from lore because that was some weird shit to be honest. If we create another system that gives clout/power/bragging to people who just happen to build more we are slowly going back to a system where someone who just simply has more time gets more power on what is supposed to be just a bunch of online friends playing Minecraft and writing fiction together. Not to say that we shouldn't have any rewards at all for people who put the time in but the fact of the matter is that we aren't an MMO and the idea of needing a system of progression baked into the server is, at a point, counter to the purpose of the server as I currently understand it. Not to pull some "Original vision for the server" bullshit but has this ever really been about progressing through the ranks and acquiring perks/benefits? I certainly don't think so and I know that many others feel the same way.

    I think the real discussion to possibly be had out of this is to maybe rethink the current rewards someone gets? As it stands now its a bit thin to be honest but the issue we run into every time is that, because this is just a Minecraft server, there isnt anything that can really be rewarded that would mean something like a Legendary weapon in an MMO would.

    The current system removed all sense of growth and accomplishment. If people didn't want to progress there would be no ranks. Each step I have taken in rank has felt more hollow than the last. Like you said, there are no rewards because we are just a MC server, but that doesn't mean there can't be the reward of knowing you have put the work in and you can say your realm is rank 7 and someone else is rank 4. That sort of thing motivates.


  • Baron

    @ThunderPony When comparing the old charter and system with the current one the only real difference between the two system is in the old one a liege kept their vassals builds for themselves and now they can't. Rewards were stripped down because most of them reflected on that old system of using someone elses labor to grow your own realm - which was universally hated and why we had a very lengthy discussion when we moved here about the kind of system we actually wanted.

    And to shift over to motivation - the 'motivation' for this server is to play Minecraft and write fiction because you want to and because you want to do it with other people. Even the old system wasn't built to facilitate progression like an actual video game and, honestly, had a lot of garbage tossed in just to pad it out.

    I am not in disagreement with the system you've proposed, as long as it doesn't give someone an unfair advantage over others with less time, I just remain skeptical of the idea that we need anything more robust than we already have and that if we did have a more robust system that it would somehow motivate people into building.


  • Count

    I'd say the reason to develop your realm is because this is a worldbuilding server, it's the same reason why we are on the server to begin with.

    I'd say the reason to take on a vassal is because you want to work with someone.

    Ive questioned it a little when realms have written extensive lore without having much physically built in game. But I have one of the largest realms, and barely write any lore. I prefer the building side over the lore side. I see no reason to negatively affect people that prefer the lore side over building.

    Overall I already know helios is bigger than ornthas, and ornthas is bigger than anaetyr, etc. I think creating an official ranking systems creates more potential for abuse than it creates positive.


  • Esquire

    I don't have an opinion on just having a progression/rank system for realms, but I don't like the idea of adding benefits since it puts players with less available time at a disadvantage, especially if those benefits are bigger things like FTP which have greater effects beyond just the game (for example when it comes to new players decisions which realm to join).
    That said, I am not necessarily against the idea of benefits, but those should be balanced between being an achievement and not having too much of an impact.
    One point I would like to add: Some of the above don't want realm-wide progression due to the fact under the old system on the old server lieges were able to profit from their vassals builds.
    I don't think that is the case anymore, because the only thing I rember depending from build count was the rank of the realms which was directly libked to the realm leaders rank and their number of votes.
    We already solved this by only allowing own builds for individual rank advencements, so a lieges rank doesn't profit from their vassals builds anymore.


  • Baron

    I'm not responding to anyone in particular, just voicing my thoughts on the general concept and ideas thrown around.

    I agree with a progression system for realms, and for rewards to be tied to that system. The reward shouldn't be individual-based, although perhaps it could be in smaller-ways. But rather rewarding for anyone that contributed to the project. Reward the project, not the contributors to the project. If a project has been proven to have received valuable investment (from one, or multiple people, doesn't matter) we should help that get even bigger. Reward that investment and push them to do more.

    Those are my thoughts on the matter.


  • Baron

    @LawnBoy072
    I think that @ThunderPony 's original suggestion only suggests some way to track the builds in people's realms. Sure it's kinda silly to get motivation from seeing a 3 tick up to a 4, but brains can be funny some times. If that trick didn't work then Paradox games wouldn't be nearly as successful. I see no issue with having a tracker as proposed in the OP.


  • Baron

    Rightio, opinion time. I find I have almost no interest in ranks other than that I'd be allowed to create NPC realms when I get to viscount. Otherwise, I find that I don't care. My realm is tiny. It has one building that would count as finished. My lore consists of a single wiki page. To me, what I do on this server is not to watch my rank progress, it's to create what I want to create, at the speed I want to create it. Getting rid of the old system did not lose my sense of growth and accomplishment. When I created Ravelstoke, I knew it had a lot of buildings. And I planned on more. I didn't care what that meant for me, what that did for my rank. I just wanted to see my city grow.
    And now discussion time. I am slightly confused. Isn't the current progression tied to builds already? Or does this refer to a number count on a realm? Like, here's the realm FlimFlam, it has 57 builds, 50 small, 5 medium, and 2 large. In this case, I don't see why people wouldn't just put this on their wiki pages, defining what they count as small, medium, etc.
    Land claims work in this way of progression too, right? You need to fill the space you have before you can claim another place to build. In this, there is a very physical way of seeing your realm grow. Perhaps those who want to could put a number of claims on their wiki page.
    I just don't see a need for this system. What happened with the last server is something I'd rather not go through again, even just the sniping. I really do hate that pissant. We already have at least two progression systems in place based upon builds, and one is literally about the size of the realm. In addition, there is nothing stopping those afflicted by our current system from posting their size in the wiki. In addition, due to my background bias, I just don't see a need for it.
    If this came to a vote, I'd have to say no or abstain. I'm afraid I just can't justify it to myself.


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