Two Lane Progression System
Welcome to LawnBoy's Two Lane Progression System post! Here I will, in mighty detail, explain an idea for a more revamped progression system. This is going to be a lengthy post outlining my reasons and thoughts on the system so PLEASE read as much as possible before you reply so we aren't talking over stuff that's already covered here.
ALSO, EVERYTHING IN THIS PROPOSAL IS NON-DEFINITIVE, IT IS JUST THE FOUNDATION OF AN IDEA AND EVERYTHING HERE IS 100% SUBJECT TO CHANGE. THE REQUIREMENTS I HAVE OUTLINED SHOULD BE REGARDED AS PLACEHOLDERS AND NOT THE ACTUAL REQUIREMENTS, THEY ARE MEANT TO SIMPLY SHOW THE SYSTEM IN ACTION. IF YOU SAY SOME DUMB SHIT LIKE "THESE REQUIREMENTS ARE TERRIBLE, CHANGE THEM!" I AM GOING TO KICK YOUR ASS!
So now that the disclaimers are out of the way lets dive in! Here is the link to the spreadsheet with the proposed system:
As to not make this post a giant wall of text I will try to bullet out the main systems and the major changes and then a few sentences behind that point/change. If you do not look at the spreadsheet you will be lost, sorry.
- Two lanes, one for Individual Persons which is reflected by their builds, lore and activity. The other lane for Realms that is reflected by the builds within the realm, including Industries and Wonders. All ranks are still out of lore.
- The Individual lane has been streamlined into six (6) total ranks. One Non-Noble and five Noble; Commoner, Baron, Count, Duke, King and Emperor. This was done to get rid of the bloat of the current system and the arbitrary ranks that are just filler.
- The Realm lane has five (5) ranks within it that add some fluff and spice to the process of building a realm. These are meant to roughly follow along the five Noble ranks, filling in the gaps, but are not meant to be 1:1 advancements.
- Three identifiers have been added to this system to give variety to the requirements; just building 100, 200, 500, whatever buildings is boring and bland. These identifiers are Specialized Buildings, Industries (remember those?) and Wonders.
- I have added an alternate requirement goal for Individual ranks, I added this as a way to open the path to higher ranks for people who don't build in the traditional style; instead of building one large settlement you can instead build a slightly increased amount of total builds and then build a number of Specialized buildings.
- Specialized buildings are non-residential and non-agricultural builds that have some sort of special use to them, whether its cultural, economical, whatever. Things like Temples, Forts, Drydocks, Specialized trade building (bowyer, dyery, scribery, cobbler, etc.), Nether Portal 'enclosures', etc. These are meant to be distinguishable builds and not run-of-the-mill, something that adds flavor wherever they are and aren't just 'shop', 'stall' or 'alter'.
- The Individual lane has some new benefits to advancements, these are filler and simply meant to get the juices flowing. Voting power has been placed at regular intervals and mirror the current system.
- The Realm lane's requirements have not only base build requirements but also have Industries and Wonders. Industries are your means of production that a given settlement outputs/produces. Coal, Iron, Fish, Wheat, Melons, Wool, Weapons, etc. These are meant to give concrete and visible production growth to the realm. Wonders are ripped straight from the Civ games; basically put these are your Statues of Liberty, Eiffel Towers, Big Bens, Largest Rubber-Band Ball of the world. These are meant to be megalithic, detailed, artful and truly unique. This is meant to add some extra flavor to the realm and really expand what it means to be a large realm.
- Teleports have been attached to the Realm lane as benefits, as that is essentially what they already were. I have also added the idea of having a custom End Portal as a benefit. RTH is Regional, ITH is International and NTH is your inter-realm teleports (from one of your settlements to another).
- I put in a 45 day 'probation' period before someone can apply for Baron, even if they meet all other reqs for it. I added this as a possible balance due to me stripping out the other non-Noble ranks that would typically fill this time period. This can be increased, decreased or taken out entirely.
And that is really it. The system isn't complex, nor should it be. But I think it lays the grounds for a deeper, while streamlined, system that has variety, diversity and most importantly options. I am happy to answer any questions about the system here or in the Discord.
I hope you guys are okay with a response that isn't as detailed as the original post, or expansive, I just wanted to voice my thoughts on the concept.
What I like:
More avenues for rank ascension, not everyone wants to do the same thing, +1 for including other options.
Purpose for creating builds that fit the definition of a "Wonder", I think it was actually a good steal and those types of builds do have a value in a realm's cultural strength, IMO.
Rewarding players with building materials.
A rank system for realms.
What I would change:
This is not necessarily a critique of any requirement, just a critique on the concept of increasing requirements to the base voting-rank. It just feels bad already when players who really dedicate a lot to their builds, have such a vastly longer waiting period as a non-voting member. Build count matters.. but it's not the only thing, I don't agree with an increase. It rewards speed builders at the end of the day, not necessarily an amazing gauge at measuring a member's personal contribution and investment.
Overall, I would vote for this as it stands.
I think the entire system looks great. As far as those requirements not being set in stone and rather being placeholders, well, I'd say they work. I am 100% for raising the baron requirement, especially with the different avenues for achieving baron... it shows dedication and commitment to reach those numbers, so I like it.
I voiced my concern many times with increased voting power as rank progresses. I don't agree with that. I believe all should have the same voting power regardless of rank. If this system or a similar system went through to a vote, I would be all for it, but if voting power is still a thing... well, that is my only concern with the current system, so why change in the first place (in my own opinion)? I would vote no.
Aside from that, great system.
I have made a few changes to a copy of the system that you have created Lawn, that I would think would benefit it. I don't think it is a great idea to move the goalposts too far for those we currently have, as that just seems like bad form. Other than that I have finagled the numbers a bit, and added in 2 ranks so that the jumps aren't as severe. I did not add in any non-noble ranks, as I think it could do with a bit of decluttering, but I don't think its the best idea to have it jump by 400 or so builds, and thus I re-added Prince, making the jump only 200 as it would go Prince ~400, King ~600, then Emperor ~800, I also readded Viscount earlier as I don't think we should be taking away people's current abilities if they had not met where we were moving it to.
I messed with the numbers a bit for the realm side, as well as moved some of them around, as I think an end portal should come a bit earlier in the progression, and that intra-realm travel shouldn't be much more than every 250 or so builds.
Also, I think realms should start with the 2 connections so available, so that we can actually chain things with cobuilds, and so that we don't break our current fast travel network.
Still using the link above, changelog via discussions in the discussions tab of discord;
Added 1 Non-noble rank, Courtier, with less strict requirements than Baron, but showing some advancement.
Changed Number of specialized builds for the first few ranks
Ok so I finally got to my computer and finally read through both documents. Going to steal some formatting from above. I have some more critiques beyond these but wanted to get my words out before
Things I like
- Gives realms something to do.
- Thins the non-noble ranks
Things I do not Like
- Wonders. This is utterly against the spirit of letting people build their realms they want to. We've gone out of our way to open the system up to not pigeon hole anyone.
- Giving materials for ranking up doesn't feel like much of a reward. If you are building and all of that jazz then you should have your own materials or your realm should have some sort of community storage.
- Too few realm ranks. The jumps are massive.
- Since it is non-lore binding anyway. Naming the realm ranks is kind of meaningless, so perhaps just Tier 1-?? or name them like arena ranks (Bronze 1-4, Silver 1-4, etc, etc)
Things I am indifferent towards
- Multiple votes for a rank. I don't really care either way. Having 2+ votes in such a large voting pool is largely pointless anyway.
- The Internal fast travel points give me a bit of pause.
- tracking of industries seems needlessly tedious. If you re building a cohesive realm you should already have industries mandating this seems pointless.
Changelog for V4,
Changes the titles for realm ranks to tiers, 0 to 8
Smoothed out the transition, adding more ranks, smoothed out the benefits as well.
Tier 0, a just founded starting realm has no benefits, 2 RTH are moved to Tier 1, which is mostly compliant with current fast travel doctrine.
Again, here is the document: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1iDgwJ8DTdOSxSe7GhqDTIhSxyc4bu4M4cVfLF81WlOQ/edit?usp=sharing
@ThunderPony I urge you to take a look at Bryson's variant of the proposed solution, it addresses a few of your concerns related rank gaps, etc.
A few thoughts:
Im not fond on the number of ranks. It seems like we have a problem trying to come up with suitable perks for ranking up and the number isn't helping.
I don't have a proposal for build numbers and perks, but I'd propose we go with something like this:
Commoner, Count, Duke, Prince, King, Emperor
County, Duchy, Kingdom, Empire.
I don't imagine it would be too hard to figure out suitable rewards and perks for less personal and realm ranks.
A new idea which I was floating on the discord is allowing people to found multiple realms. Get rid of the NPC realm moniker except for co-builds like Arcos, and instead allow people of relevant rank to found a new realm, completely separate to their other realm/s.
additional realms would be treated the same as someones primary realm. I think this would foster creativity and allow people to do some interesting things.
Going back to the ranks, I would like to see the requirements for empire being multiple, culturally distinct realms. This would be in line with empires historically, who often encompassed different cultures and peoples within their vast borders.
This might necessitate that people aren't allowed to call themselves any title again like before (Cant be a king if you aint got to king rank for example), but I think it allowed creativity in other ways enough
im for ditching the npc relam moniker and calling them all realms, (since it was my idea it has to be good) and still allowing co builds, with a certain number of realms per rank.
I still want to keep ranks out of lore, and dont want to make the emperor rank require multiple distinct realms and cultures, and i dont want to restrcit what people can call themselves in lore.
Im fine with the amount of ranks so far.
The number of builds i think would be good just for the flat total number is:
courtier/esquire/whatever - 15
baron - 35
Viscount - 70
Count - 150
Duke - 250
Prince - 400
King - 600
Emperor - 800
T1 - 35
T2 - 100
T3 - 250
T4 - 500
T5 - 750
T6 - 1000
T7 - 1250
T8 - 1500
Changelog: Most numbers altered to be rounded off, slightly different than what fish suggested. Again, here is the link: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1iDgwJ8DTdOSxSe7GhqDTIhSxyc4bu4M4cVfLF81WlOQ/edit?usp=sharing
I believe this is not resolved enough to vote, the lack of discussion I think is more due to holiday stresses and not that this is the optimal look at what we need.
Changelog: Removed Extra Votes, everyone will now just have 1, as many people have been against it.
Bump - For continued discussion to this new progression system draft.
Im still of the opinion that having two ranks is confusing. As it stands theres too many arbitrary perks being locked out behind either realm or personal rank.
I think a better approach is to retain the current number of ranks and perks as they stand, allow voting at a lower rank, and allow realm leaders to count vassal builds in their progression, perhaps at a lower rate. This would prevent having a bunch of essentially useless ranks which dont grant any additional benefit, allow vassals to retain their build count when they move out, but also allow realm leaders to benefit from overall work being done that they have directed, but not completed directly.
What arbitrary perks do you believe are locked behind certain ranks? As it currently stands, this doesn't change everything all that much. Voting at a lower rank would be desirable, and I will include that in the next draft. I don't personally see a reason to have lieges count their vassals builds, in any manner. With the system, the liege would still benefit as their all builds in their realm would count towards the realm rank. I don't feel like incentivizing the taking on of vassals is a good idea, and I still think that they should only be offered to if the potential liege wants someone to work with, and grow their realms in new ways.
Also, the current two-lane draft gets rid of a useless rank, as opposed to what we have now. I don't feel like keeping track of this is all too hard, especially when you can just pop open a spreadsheet and increase a number, or just do a recount of what you have built.
At this point I'm no sure which we're discussing - Lawn's original document or Bryson's altered document.
@Tioteche Bryson's updated version is the most current version and the one that is up for discussion
In Bryson's document, there are a few things I need cleared up-
75 Total Builds, 35 Build Settlement OR 90 Total Builds, 20 Specialized Builds (Max 3 Repeating)
The format of this ^ is a bit confusing. What is this actually telling me to do. My main settlement have 35 builds at least, with 75 across the whole realm?
If that's the case, then I like the build count numbers for the ranks.
Secondly, I agree with Seppy that there may be too many Personal ranks? But maybe more is needed for a more gentle transition. So maybe it's the right number.
Third, what is going to happen to people on the server who are already counts and viscounts?
Some other things I really like about this 2 lane progression is the founding of multiple realms
I'm one of those folk who really want the option and this seems great for that.
@Tioteche I am here to answer for posterity!
That line is explaining that for your realm to meet the reqs for that rank your realm must either have; 75 total builds with a singular settlement of at least 35 builds. OR, 90 total builds with 20 of those builds being specialized buildings (smith, alchemist, parish, doctor, etc.). This is to allow another avenue to build up your realm if you dont want to have large settlements, which our current system forces.
I am also in the boat of toning down our rank numbers, but it appears to me that many people would like many ranks so I dont know how likely it is we get a smaller number.
I assumed that we would grandfather those people into their current ranks if they then all of a sudden didnt meet the new reqs. But with the most recent thing happening maybe they just become the rank they have the actual reqs for? This'll need discussion, absolutely.
Hope that helped anyone with the same questions!