Addressing Lordly Requirements and Inactivity Circumstances
This will likely be a controversial subject, please know I'm not trying to attack anyone, but address a growing sentiment on the server.
When we set up our charter in December of 2018, we decided as a group to increase the build requirements for Baron, the first voting rank. What used to be 20 builds for Lord became 35 builds for Baron. This is an important rank, as so many benefits are granted to it.
It concerns me that after a year and 2 months, many of our barons still do not meet this requirement that we set for all new members. It also concerns me when I see these members still utilizing their votes to affect gameplay, when they don’t seem to be participating in said gameplay.
I’ve spoken with a number of people on the server, both Nobles and Lowborn, both people who meet their rank, and those still struggling to do so, and I’m not the only one concerned with this fact.
The solution I’ve come up with will be a controversial one, but just giving it time does not seem to be doing the trick. I’d like to set a deadline. I’d like to propose an amendment that only goes into effect 6 months after the passing. 6 months after the amendment passes, anyone who does not meet the build requirements would be listed as Non Participating. This would mean their votes would go untallied, and I would also limit other perks granted at baron for NP and Withdrawn members. Specifically, I would like to officially state that NP and Withdrawn members cannot run as Minister or serve as Deputy Minister, make land claims or offer vassalage to new members. Regardless of the feelings on our grandfathered members, it seems like people who are inactive to the point of becoming NP or withdrawn would not be doing those things anyway, but I'd like it written out in the charter.
It is my fervent hope that nobody would actually need to be made NP after the 6 months have passed, but rather, this deadline will be the kick in the butt some of use need to reach our own rank’s requirements. However, If after 20 months there are still barons that do not have the build requirements that most new members take 2 months to get, can we really say they are participating in this world building MINECRAFT server? Do they really deserve to keep the benefits we deny new players until they meet these requirements?
I don’t want to discount what was done on Aldemeria, but that server was taken away from us. It's a terrible thing that happened, but at some point we have to accept that, and start focusing on the server we have.
It was also requested that I specify specific situations where I have seen members that I feel aren't that active were influencing stuff with their votes. These are situations that had me specifically questioning whether they were active enough to really be swaying things. I feel no animosity to these members, but feel I must be specific to actually get my point across.
The first situation was last September, when Memo and Bryson were running for Minister of Infrastructure. This was a vote I was impartial in. I chose to abstain from that election, and second the tiebreaker election, as I felt both candidates would make a great Minister. But when I look at the votes now, Memo had many votes from people I would not consider active on the server. The most concerning though, was when Knaris was specifically told to vote on the last day of the tiebreaker vote. Knaris, who as of today, has not been seen on the server for 5 and a half months, and at the time was mere weeks away from becoming NP by current standards, came around only to vote, and ended up swaying the election in Memos favor.
The second situation that made me a bit uncomfortable, was In December, when Lawnboy restarted a discussion on our current progression system. His proposed two lane system (only a 1st draft) again increased the requirements for baron, from 35 to 50 total buildings, more than double what Lord was on the last server. I’ve spent vacations with Lawn and consider him a friend, and I don’t mean to attack him, but I found it very strange that he would consider upping the requirements again, when he still hasn't reached the current requirements that a new person would have to reach to be able to put forward such a discussion. That conversation never really went anywhere, and others made a second draft that brought baron back to 35, but the initial situation of a member who had not reached the requirements for his rank, suggesting an increase in requirements that would make it even harder for new members to achieve the same level as him, had me again thinking whether something should be done to force people to catch up. I would like to note that at no time do I think there was any malicious intent, people were just spitballing ideas. But I happened to notice the discrepancy there.
Closing Argument: At the end of the day, we all agreed on these requirements, and at some point, we should all have to meet them to continue enjoying the perks granted by it. I feel 6 months of notice before any action taken is plenty when we consider we’ve already had 14 months. I know myself and other more active members would even be willing to donate materials to help people with limited time maximize their efficiency online. If the voting is going to affect what happens in Candarion, I feel those with a vote should have met the requirements ON Candarion.
Please don't hate me.
I agree with this. I'm one of the Barons in question, and frankly I'm disappointed in myself when looking at what I've completed in the last year. Especially when considering what I had done in the old world. I understand where Alric is coming from, and I understand that there may be an irritation towards all these grandfathered Barons who havent done the work.
This is a valid issue and I support this idea 100%, as our server continues to grow and the number of players who came after Aldemeria Increases. We need to remember it’s unfair to them that they need to put in lots of work whilst people who were grandfathered in and haven’t built much have equal or greater voting privileges.
Hey, since I am mentioned in this I feel more compelled to answer than I would have otherwise (although I would have anyways lol) - Quickly the draft I made specifically stated that the numbers I plugged in for the two-lane system were 100% arbitrary and just placeholders meant to demonstrate the math of the system. For this to be used as an example to strip rights away from very specific members seems mildly irresponsible to me as the number increase isnt even that.
But to cut to the chase; I would vote against this. To me this simply seems like a bad attempt to block out very specific members and to alienate those of us who dont feel very driven to build (literally due to shit like this) but are otherwise active members. I am on the forums and in the Discord and an active Deputy! But because I dont have a single settlement of twenty buildings I should be blocked out of all of that? Seems ridiculous. People were grandfathered in specifically because of the work they had done on the past server and to revoke that now is just so strange.
I can 100% confirm that if this passed and I had my rights stripped (despite me being engaged and active and a benefit to the server as a whole) that I would dip out.
EDIT - Hello again! Felt I needed to say another thing real quick. Inevitably I am going to get asked "But Lawn, if you are such an active part of the server and want to maintain those rights why would you leave and not do the builds!?!?" and the answer is that I dont have the drive or the time or the energy. I shouldnt be punished for having a cascade of personal issues happen to me. Honestly, and no offense meant here, this just feels like something He Who Shall Not Be Named would have tried to pass.. idk.
As someone who has worked his way up from scratch as a very active member, I feel everyone else should be held to the same standards. I support this.
I have 21 buildings in Aeredos as of right now, i have participated in pretty much everything that happens, but i just dont have alot of time. I've sank in years of my life into all of this stuff, and because I haven't gotten around to building an additional settlement because im focusing on Aeredos, which takes me a long time to figure out what i want to do and how i want to do it, i shouldn't have a say in the community anymore?
@Aevirath 21 Buildings in 14 months is 1.5 buildings a month. At that rate, in 6 months you will be at 30 buildings. Is it so much to ask that you kick out another 5 buildings, perhaps briefly divert attention to an additional settlement where builds typically take less time, just to ensure we all meet the same requirements?
I understand quality takes time, and your builds DEFINITELY show it. But I still feel we should all at least TRY to get to the requirements new members must meet.
I would prefer to not have to, as i have alot of things going on and the time i spend in minecraft i want to be working on aeredos as its the project I enjoy working on. If i have to, I will, but it seems to me that this whole suggestion just discounts all the other effort i've put in to this community and server in the past. If all of that isn't important, then i guess its not important.
@LawnBoy072 I did my best to to specify that it was just a rough draft, and you had no specific intent or agenda, without getting too much off topic. It was just the discrepancy of not having builds, but having power to influence build requirements for new people in general that I wanted to highlight.
Personally, I believe you and Logan contribute to the server in other meaningful ways, but by trying to exclude specific people, it would inevitably turn to specifically targeting specific people. The only fair way I could think of was to base it on the established requirements for the rank, and try to give enough time and do as much to help these members short of building stuff for them, to just push them towards that goal.
Right, in short I am heavily against this for several reasons. Namely the fact that most of the grandfathered barons have put in the effort to become lords in the past, but also because I don't believe it would be conducive to the environment and that the current barons have contributed to the worldbuilding and maintenance of the server, as far as I'm aware anyway.
The thing that irks me the most about the proposal is the idea that grandfathered barons didn't earn their spots as barons, as realm leaders with a vote that matters in the server, when many them have in fact put in the work to become realm leaders with a say in the server. Candarion wasn't anyone choosing to erase everything to start anew. It deleted everything we had built, everything that got us to the ranks we held there. If my memory is correct, all but four of the grandfathered barons were lords and above on Aldemeria. That's nearly everyone who did their time, they worked their way up to being able to found a realm and have a vote and they met the requirements to do so. Candarion is a continuation of that same Community we had on Aldemeria. They earned their spot as barons/lords and have stayed active, that's all that was required of them and all that should be now. If a new person attained baron and then stopped building at that point, we wouldn't strip them of the importance of their rank. They earned baron and as long as they're active, they shouldn't be discounted. Neither should the grandfathered barons. If I went and blew up Genesis, the effort Mouth put into it doesn’t suddenly disappear. His rank doesn’t suddenly disappear because I decided to go blow his city up. He shouldn’t have to rebuild everything to regain his rank. Just because the physical manifestation of Aldemeria is gone does not invalidate the effort and work we put in.
This invalidation of their previous efforts is not going to be conducive to the health of the server at all. Being told that what you did in the past is no longer enough and that your current rate of worldbuilding isn't fast enough would be enough to make some people walk out. What would happen to people like Memeo, who publish lore and build occasionally but not enough to attain the requirements? He's contributed a massive amount to the server and most of it isn't present in conventional builds. What about the returning barons? People that are just now coming back to the server, stripping them of their importance to the server could see them leave it entirely, off to search for greener pastures. Grandfathered barons aren't just riding off the fact they were at the origin of the server so they get a say. They get their baronhood because they earned it back on Aldemeria.
In addition, I find the notion that the grandfathered barons haven't contributed adequately to the worldbuilding of the server ludicrous. You have people like Memeo who's done incredible things with farms and is making attempts at lore and building, Septimus who has written lore for his realm and built in it and is currently working with me to write even more co-lore and create builds, not to mention his ministering. Tajani, even though she was an esquire and was one of the few to up-rank at the founding is writing an entire conlang for her realm. To say they are essentially not participating in the worldbuilding purpose of the server is something I find to be ridiculous. We've never put pressure on people to do things they can't. We've never had a time requirement and we've always said upfront "it's not a race." Suddenly it’s “use it or lose it” and that is completely contradictory.
All around I find this proposal to be a bad idea. It’s attempting to remove powers from people who are actively participating in the server and label them as “non-participating” when they clearly and demonstrably are participating, just not at the rate some would prefer. It’s against the spirit of our server.
I will be responding to those situations and see if I can come up with a solution.
Unfortunately, by avoiding targeting those members specifically you are targeting more people, specifically. No matter how you phrase it, if you are aiming this proposal at people you are specifically targeting them. There is no avoiding that.
Ultimately I will have to agree with Iokastos here on every point raised. I think this was an important thing to bring attention to, however, as he explained in very well-articulated detail above, it is a rather narrow-sighted way of looking at the situation. No-one was given their noble ranks for nothing, it was all grandfathered from real work they did in Aldemeria or else, as in my case, voted on my the community in an open and fair process that we all agreed upon.
Furthermore, I don't think that we should view contributions to the server so heavily weighted towards raw build count. As so many people above me have mentioned, there are plenty of ways that people can contribute to the growth and vitality of the community. Valeyard does amazing work as a part of the ministry, and is part of the backbone of our community. Candarion wouldn't be the same without him, regardless of the number of builds there are in Sucia (and ignoring that, as Iokastos said, he still did do the required amount of work on the previous server). People have different strengths and different weaknesses (except Tywin obviously, like seriously Helios is perfect), and building is one of those. Obviously I'm biased, because I am an incredibly slow builder while tending to focus on lore and worldbuilding far far more, and this proposal, if passed, would affect me greatly.
So I think this is an important thing to think about, and I am glad it was raised because I'm sure the resulting discussion will be very useful for the community, but I don't think that punishing people like me, who the community agreed deserve our ranks uncontroversially, for working at different speeds is the right option.
I would say that first and foremost, we are a Minecraft worldbuilding server. I joined this community about 3 months prior to the fishening. I have had an amazing time, and I plan to stick with it. Meeting the basic requirements that we set for others to meet is not a hard goal in my opinion. We agreed to these numbers, as well as adding more stipulation when we first recognized the charter, all the way back in December of 2018. Specifically, we did not and are not invalidating the work that we have done previously. That was done by Cerdic. He blew up the server that we were all having a good time in. Literally hundreds of thousands of collective man-hours gone in an instant.
I heavily resent the blatant calling of what Drew is proposing as something that the previous dictator would do. I don't believe that he would have given a chance, nor that he would have put as much effort forward to get people to meet the requirements that we all agreed on. Why is it fair that new members have to put in more effort now to gain the benefits that you gained from the previous server, that had a lesser requirement? Why is it fair that people that are not actively participating in the worldbuilding aspect of the community that is built on Minecraft worldbuilding, get a say in how that worldbuilding is run?
I did not ask this to be brought up, but Alric saw what he recognized as a growing problem in the community, and to straight-up compare him to someone that flips the table when they don't get their way is just straight-up wrong. He is not trying to disqualify literally anyone that is still active. He wants more people to be active. He wants it to be that everyone that has a say is meeting all the requirements.
Something that was brought in voice is the fact that old work is currently seen as superior to new work. This is a problem in my eyes, and certainly not mine alone. I am more than willing to help in any way that is possible for me to do, I will repair your tools for you, gather materials for you, help in any manner that I can, just to make it so that we all meet these requirements. Alric has said that he will do much the same. I am sure that there are others that would do the best they can to help as well.
To address some of the things Ioka has said; If you just went and blew up something, we could do something about it; as said above, there are multiple people that are willing to assist others; if a new member of this server could come in, and do all that is needed in two months, I see literally zero reasons that even if you have been burnt out up till this point that you could not start tomorrow and reach the requirements well before the deadline. The deadline proposed isn't exactly soon. Alric is not proposing that we kick people out of the community, he is proposing that people that are actively working on the worldbuilding aspect of the community have the ability to vote.
We are a democracy that has limits on being able to vote. We should all meet the requirements that we set for joining us in being able to vote. I would not say that old work should be valued more than new work in our current worldbuilding project. I would not say that there is a precise way to do this. It should apply to everyone, as singling people out is what Cerdic did. The fishening was caused by us as a community not supporting that bullshit.
EVERYONE on the server should meet the requirements that we currently set. EVERYONE has a voice regardless of the vote.
EVERYONE should be treated equally and that includes the standards we set for being able to vote.
To me this is reading as a heavy disconnect between what various members see as meaningful contribution to the server and the system we have set out to 'reward' that. Because the rank system is heavily skewed to looking at builds it can look like people aren't "pulling their weight" or whatever. Perhaps the real solution is to figure out an individual rank system that is less build oriented so as to be able to recognize folks that contribute meaningfully but have less builds. I don't know if or how that'd fit into the whole minecraft aspect of the server, but that's my current two cents.
Having something disappear does not mean that the work is invalidated. When Mimo builds a computer and sends it off, just because he no longer has the computer does not mean he didn't put in the time and effort to make it. Just because Aldemeria is gone doesn't mean the effort we put in was suddenly invalidated by Cerdic. It's still there, and it meant something for our ranks. Removing these ranks that were earned by those old builds is invalidating the effort and work and time we poured into them.
There is no idea that old builds are superior to new builds. Anyone who is claiming that is wrong. Back on Aldemeria there was also a lore requirement to becoming a noble in addition to the builds. We traded that lore requirement for a larger build requirement. To rank up, officially you don't need any lore. People do object to that, because then you're not engaging in the worldbuilding aspect of the server, but to say that the build requirements between Aldemeria and Candarion are completely incomparable is wrong.
To also then say that anyone could simply start tomorrow and reach the deadline is wrong. People have real life events they must take care of before they can even attempt to hop on the server and then build. Some people only have a few hours a week to contribute to building. To say that they should just start building is ludicrous and goes against the principle of the server that this is not, and has never been a race.
I find this is singling out people, I'm sorry you have dissent about this and the people involved, but as a part of this community I will not support this bullshit.
I disagree with this. It's just a bit excessive, it's a minecraft server. People have lives and stresses of their own that they need to focus on and adding another thing to the pile is not good. Just because people aren't up a certain amount of builds doesn't mean they're inactive at all. There are many people who contribute to the server but with things that aren't necessarily counted as part of their activeness. Also, some people have masses of builds which all look the same and are quite small and not very detailed whereas others have these massive builds with masses of detail and effort put into them but because they're technically only one build it seems like those people are contributing less, which isn't true. I just think this would ruin the community for a lot of people and make it less fun and general and that more spite and hate will arise between players.
@bryson3842 I agree entirely with the points that Bryson and Alric have made. The community is based around minecraft--- building our world inside the game. The fishening was over a year ago, and many members have not met the basic requirements yet. If you will expect that of new members, you should expect that of yourselves. The community has moved forth, and a whole new generation of members are coming in. First myself, now Mouth, and likely soon many more. We have worked very actively for our ability to vote.
I understand that those who were grandfathered in once earned their rank, though this is a different community at this point. The requirements have also changed. It isn't fair for those of us here, who participate actively, to be outnumbered by the votes of those who do not, of those who have not participated as actively as we have.
Now, Alric is not threatening to take away realms. You will still have your realms, but will simply lose your voting ability until you meet the VERY BASIC requirements. Come on guys, it's been a really long time. Once you meet the requirements, you would be able to vote again. I feel if you aren't willing to put in minimal effort over the course of the past 14 months, AND 6 more months to come, you should not be able to exercise the right to vote. Frankly, it is not a right, but rather a privilege at that point.
I may be a newer, non grandfathered in member, but I hope that doesn't discredit my stance. Rather, shine a different perspective in.
@Iokastos This is literally the opposite of singling people out. It is a blanket statement that should apply to everyone. Cerdic did invalidate our work. Everyone was set to zero. It isn't false that old work is valued more. The requirements were lower. And its false that lore wasn't needed. It was. And it is. You need lore to rank up. That is a legal requirement. People have shit in real life to do. Yes. I haven't been on in weeks before this week, because I have had shit to do in real life. I have, and every other grandfathered in noble had 14 months, and 6 months more if this would pass to meet the bare minimum.
a. Rank Facts
i. Rank progression is based only on individual contributions.
ii. Ranks are entirely non-lore.
iii. Server activity and accompanying lore are required and will be considered in
rank ascension votes.
But there is no number of lore pieces that are required. On Aldemeria there was.
Amendment: I was recalling a number of lore pieces I was required to hit as a Linirean, not as a part of the Aldemerian charter. There was no number of lore pieces required to ascend a rank.